Please read Chapter 9. Then write one observation (open ended) with a quote as support. It can be about anything, but it must strike you as being particularly well done or insightful. Then, respond to one of your peer's posts.
Due: Friday, 5.17 (before class)
The humans seem very fixated on their beliefs and do not challenge them while Grendel spends his time observing and speculating. The fact that the humans and the dragon have something so sure to believe in makes him jealous and afraid, even if he doesn't believe/doesn't want to believe that they are correct. Does god suffer from the dilemma of having nothing to believe in? If god is everything, he can be both good and evil in the eyes of humans, and also constantly misimagined. And if people define themselves by something they misimagine, can they ever know themselves?
ReplyDeleteYou know these are great things you're mentioning here. I sort of touch on some of those in my comment too. But yes I agree that humans have fixed views on religion, on a big scale, and Grendel doesn't so it works fairer for him. As far as what god is... believers would say different things and it all depends where and how you have been brought up.
DeleteAs for people not knowing who they are... Humans are always in the cycle of developing their personality. It never ends. So you could either say that one always has a definitive view of themselves that they imagine themselves in or you could say that whatever they imagine is pointless because they are ever-developing.
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ReplyDeleteGrendel had shown improvements in this chapter. He intended "to paint the images with the old man's steaming blood", but he did not and instead he pretended to be the Destroyer (130). This quote clearly shows how he had the intention of killing the man. In the previous chapters, he would probably kill mostly anyone that he saw like eat the people or destroy the society. Now he has changed to a creature that does not harm anyone easily. I hope he would behave like this in the following chapters.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Grendel has improved on his level of violence compared to previous chapters. However, I think he is still evil l like he has been before. What was the point in fiddling with the identity of the Destroyer? I think it's still out of sheer playfulness and proud underestimation of the human identity that he chose to do that.
DeleteI also agree the Grendel showed improvement in this chapter. Like you said, he would used to just kill and slaughter whatever he felt like, but instead he now thinks about his decisions and thinks about what he does. He does still like to scare and torture, physically and mentally, but doesn't murder near as often as he used to.
DeleteI agree with Lise, even though her opinion is quite different from mine. She said that Grendel said that he is The Destroyer in order to control himself. I found that observation quite interesting!
DeleteThe religious culture as expressed in chapter 9 reflects the aspects of belief in modern day Japan. One main "religion" so-to-speak is Shintoism, and it shares divinities similar to the "wolf-god, the bull-god, the horse-god" and "the happily smiling god with the nose like a pig's" as we see in the text (Gardner 128). It is as if a child randomly designed the two religions out of sheer imagination. Not only are the theological concepts similar, but the culture behind the religions are strikingly alike. Grendel observes that "no one in the kingdom is convinced that the gods have life in them" yet they still tolerate the ideas and merely follow along (Gardner 128). This attitude is present in Shintoism; Japanese people do not actually believe in the Shinto faith from the heart. It is more for national pride and alas, a fake sanctuary of "hope" that human beings all seem to share.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Shintoism, how Japanese people does not truly believe in the faith and how it is more like for national pride. I think the people tolerate these ideas because they need something to believe in. Even I do not believe in a certain religion, but I have my own beliefs in order to make decisions.
DeleteThis is a spectacular point you brought up there louis! Although Shintoism is not practiced as much as it used to be, the pride that nation holds in it still lives. I believe most people just take in that idea because of the rich history and to pay tribute to there ancestory. It is a long lived religion that will help the japanese move further yet keep that traditional feel and make good decisions.
DeleteEvery step of the way Grendel is developing more human like traits. He starts to develop more complex ideas and thoughts involving humans such as observing that "no one in the kingdom is convinced that the gods have life in them" (Gardner 128). He even decided to get a little creative at one point by deciding to "paint" images with "the old man's steaming blood" (130). He is slowly but surly developing as a character and I look forward to see what else he throws at our way with his unique opinion on life.
ReplyDeleteI didn't realize that his thoughts are becoming creative! I was only thinking that he was just thinking about universe and fates, and all sorts of boring stuff. Though not only creative in his mind, he sometimes think what will happen if this goes that, and actually try it. For example, Grendel wondered what will happen if he breaks the idol of the Gods, he actually broke the rock and saw people carving the woods for exchange of rocks.
DeleteGrendel have started to control himself and realized humans pithiness are pity. Just like the part when Grendel tried to kill the queen and confront his fate, he refused of killing her. In this chapter, he was already intending “to paint the images with the old man’s steaming blood.” (130), but controlled himself not to kill him. Instead, Grendel asked about the King of the Gods, and heard the priest’s eager explanation about the king of god, Grendel tip-toed away without killing him. Grendel afterwards heard fourth priest getting crazy and saying some kind of weird stuff, Grendel “stifled by such talk.” (136)
ReplyDeleteI agree with your observation that Grendel had become more patient and self-disciplined. As seen in the last chapter, he controls himself from killing the queen, and now, he controls himself although he was thinking of destroying the priest.
DeleteWe have similar observations. It is great seeing how dreadful monsters like Grendel can develop in terms of characteristics. As Marvin mentioned, he learned self-discipline and is able to keep the desire at the absolute minimum. Also he is compassionate, which is what we see in the second quote. Before, he thought that there should be no pity for a coward, which is practically everyone to him.
DeleteIn this chapter, we can see Grendel's perspective on religion. Due to his nihilistic views he doesn't really consider about religion or beliefs. He agrees with Hrothgar that "religion is sick" because no one really knows if there is a god or not (Gardner 128). I can deeply relate to Grendel's insightful thinking because I think there is no point to religion, and humans should live and come as they are. You cannot express yourself with religion because it doesn't show genuine originality. You and your inner colors are what makes you beautiful. And by that means, Grendel is beautiful. Another thing is that Grendel shows improvement of human interaction. Instead of devouring the priest, Grendel talks with him. I find this ironic because he has "eaten several of priests", but this time he doesn't (Gardner 129). This definitely spotlights how Grendel had become more patient, and profoundly humane overtime.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the fact that you have opened up your own opinion on how Grendel sees religion, and you are absolutely right on the fact the he has originality because he does not express himself through religion, he does things the way he wants to. But in a sense, even though religion limits you to your views on life, isn't it good to have some faith to guide one's self through life?
DeleteKai Izumi
ReplyDeleteNow we start to see some actual religion and some involvement as well as focus on the subject. The danes are polytheistic, meaning to have a variety of gods, such as the wolf god, dagger tooth, four eyes and et cetera. In this chapter, Ork, a priest, is in search of an evil, dark, and powerful god called The Destroyer, and so Grendel steps in and says "It is I...The Destroyer" (Gardner 130). Not only does Ork worship Grendel, but as influences him in a sense by talking about the other gods. Like the ultimate god, this being "The King of Gods". On another note, "The King of Gods" can relate to other polytheistic religions such as Greek or Roman, which is to have a hierarchy leader of the gods, this being Zeus or Jupiter.
I see your point about religion finally deeply involved. But I do not think that Ork was in search for The Destroyer, that it was just a mere coincidence that Grendel was there when Ork decides to "have a walk". That Grendel decides to pretend, to act as if he was The Destroyer Ork believes in.
DeleteIn this chapter, we see that Grendel starts to take more control over his actions. Before he would see something and want to murder it, and if he wanted to do something, he would unconsciously do so. Now, we see that Grendel actually thinks about what he does, as he intended “to paint the images with the old man’s steaming blood.” (130), telling us that he planned the murder instead of doing it blindly.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think that Grendel is becoming more existential and realizing that the power he felt when he killed people was as meaningless as their lives were. (As he mentions with the Queen) I think that he is becoming more interested in how humans find meaning (However fake it may be) and how to find meaning for himself.
DeleteI agree that Grendel had changed. Before, he couldn't control his actions and murdered many people. But now he takes more control over his actions and stays calm. I agree that now, he sees more of his actions and is doing the right thing.
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ReplyDeleteJOSHUA
ReplyDeleteGrendel has once again developed in several aspects throughout the chapter. One is that how he can manage to control himself. Before he would unconsciously kill someone, well that’s not the case in this time. “I intend to paint the images with the old man’s streaming blood” (130). Although he has intentions, he is able to keep the insanity, lust, and the desire to kill at the absolute minimum. Also there was many involvements with religion in this chapter. Considering his nihilistic characteristic, we see that he is able to understand some aspects of beliefs or faiths.
I agree that he killed more humans before, but disagree with the part that Grendel killed them "unconsciously". He was furious at how people beautify their history and mock other races or species. Back then, he didn't know how to communicate with humans, and violence was his way of expressing his anger. I think he was very conscious at that time, although could've seemed unconscious due to his madness.
DeleteReligion in this chapter is being insulted to some decent extents. First, those men claim that "religion is sick" (Gardner 128). Then, Grendel also realises and straightforwardly tells us that the ceremonies are "only showmanship" and they do not carry a meaning (Gardner 128). What really allows Grendel to make such comments is because he is not in the human world. In the human world, most people are already taught to believe in their faith and they do it since birth without questioning anything. But as for Grendel, he was never affected by religion and therefore he can have a clean and unbiased look on it, from which he deduces that religious ceremonies are useless. Moreover, Grendel keeps learning even more about the truths of humanity. He explains that weak people take hold of religion to make excuses, but the strong ones have determination in heart and do not depend on their faith yet succeed.
ReplyDeleteI really like this section because I know that tons people rely on divinities too much to help them. They do not realise that god helps them who help themselves.
This also proves that more hidden agnostics or atheists had the freedom to express their ideas and that time.
I feel that Grendel and the dragon's thoughts about them defied as the evil had reflected by the priests in this chapter. Although it was the humans themselves, not the "ultimate limitation" of the Great Destroyer, Grendel finally understood that even if the Shaper did not exist, or did not actually affect those people by his songs, he would have become the bad; there was no way of becoming like the honored. Grendel would not have existed too if the kings and gods and people of good were nothing but the "pointless accident" (28). Without him or his replacement the God, who gave people hope of being released by the evil, would not have existed as well.
ReplyDeleteI think chapter 9 is deeply related to its religion. The priests pray to the god and ask to "defend the people of Scyld and kill their enemy", but Grendel smiles and waits with his "arms folded" (Gardner 127). Instead of a God coming down to help the Scyldlings, Grendel himself pretends to be the Great Destroyer. Then, the priest who is considered the most religious fall in for Grendel. Of course he was blind, but because he "believed" that Grendel was the Great Destroyer, it seemed like as if Grendel really was. By this situation, it makes me suspect whether religions are just a belief that we think its true or not. Do Gods really exist?
ReplyDeleteHey, this is the question I'm always trying to figure out. It's so confusing when somebody says; "There is a God!" and someone else says; "There's no God!" The Great Destroyer and Grendel, isn't it the same thing if you believe so?
DeleteThis chapter talked more about the everyday life in town than before: children playing in the snow, December being the gloomiest month, what warriors did when they weren't fighting, etc. Grendel has learned how to control his desire to kill when "once, years ago, for no particular reason, I wrecked the place... "(128). Later, Grendel met the Ork, which was a very important part of this chapter in my opinion. Grendel is very insecure,so by telling the Ork that he is The Destroyer, he immediately caused so much fear and desperation for the poor old man. Grendel is just like many of us, by making others feel miserable, he made himself feel great.
ReplyDeleteChapter 9 talks a lot about religion. Grendel agrees with Hrothgar that "religion is sick"(1289. Grendel then laughs at the priests when they pray to their gods to defend their kingdom and kill their enemies. When Grendel was at the ring, a blind priest named Ork came to check who was there. Grendel then pretended to be "The Destroyer"(130). Ork really believes that Grendel is the Destroyer. Instead of killing the priest, Grendel had a long chat with him. I agree with Grendel`s thought about religion. Religion can be a good thing guiding people. But also it can be stupid. Religion causes wars and can be a excuse to persecute who ever doesn't follow. Its hard to believe but its true looking at the past.
ReplyDeleteWell Max, you have a beautiful point here, I wish I'm smart like you. We do talk about the same thing but we have different reasonings. I like how you pointed out that religion can be stupid, since it could cause big trouble. Just don't make fun of religion too much because you might hurt people's feelings. :)
DeleteMy goodness, pages 133 to 136 is like listening to nerds talking about something super geeky. Anyways, I'm aware that this chapter is concentrated on the religious side of Danes. Gardner points out the negative aspects of religion; In religion "there is only showmanship" (being sarcastic here) and it also shows how strong the priests feel about God (128). I Believe this chapter is also about Sagittarius (One of the Zodiac) because in the first bit of the chapter it clearly said December; Also Sagittarius represents someone who's immersed in culture, who loves freedom which is explains Ork's personality pretty well.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the part that it did sound like nerds talking to each other and it closely resembled to a bunch of geeks playing a fantasy board game. It's cool how you figured out the zodiac sign for this chapter, honestly I would've actually taken a very long time to figure that one out.
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DeleteIn this chapter, I started noticing how Grendel grew to a more human-like character. He keeps telling himself that he shouldn't do things because it is meaningless like what an existentialists would say. However, I think secretly he just has this guilt or something, that he's not sharing in the narrative. Other than that, he is "afraid" of something "strange as spring" (Gardner 126). He feels like he was the deer, as if he is being hunted down, "in the snow, vaguely alarming, approaching like an arrow in a slowed-down universe, and a shudder runs through [him]" and he laughed at his fear during his time around the ring of Gods (Gardner 130). I thought a monster like him could just eat his way out of his fear.
ReplyDeleteThis chapter is focused on religion of antique world. I can say it's about heathenism, because they have many "Scyldings' gods" and these gods are related to some animal, like wolf, bull, horse or pig. Also there's something like this; "In the old days they used to kill virgins."(128) I think this quote confirms my opinion that this religion is close to heathenism. It is the first time we see something about priests of Hrothgar's country, so it is the begining of people's religious development in this story. It might be Grendel's development too, because he became a little bit better than in previous chapters. He has "eaten several priests" and only that. His growth is worth praising.
ReplyDeleteComparison of Ork and other priests(133,134), make Ork looks foolish at first, but I'm tend to think that the author trying to show that both sides are ridiculous. I couldn't find another type of people, though. It's hard to say which side is better at this moment.
Wow, I didn't even know that heathenism even existed. But, now that I do, it is really similar to what Hrothgar's people believe in. I like how you pointed out about that both sides of the priests are ridicilous, showing that we are all the same. I do agree and feel happy that Grendel has become a better character restraning himself from eating humans lately.
DeleteEnrique
ReplyDeleteWhat I found interesting in this chapter was the fact that after Grendel had smashed "the wooden gods like kindling and toppled the gods of stone", that although the Danes were ignorant of the incident they still replaced the broken idols (Gardner 128). As described in the book, they weren't eager to to rebuild the idols but cause it was to do with religion they just did it. This can also be seen in many religions all around the world. Like in Christianity going to church every Sunday is something people don't really look forward to but they just do for some reason. This concept of "just because" and not really having a strong or clear reason why is seen clearly in the religious belief of the Danes.
I noticed that Grendel is able to control, and think before he acts, unlike the previous chapters. To me it seems like Grendel has become calm again, after the murder of tons of people. Grendel, "cannot clearly recall the smell of blood" (137), this means he didn't kill people for a while, which could mean he has become the Grendel he was before. Just like how the novel started, this chapter gives me the loneliness Grendel had in the beginning. Grendel strolls "slowly, wiping the snow from my face..there is no sound on earth but the whispering snowfall" (137). This chapters seems like a flashback to me.
ReplyDeleteIn this chapter,I think Grendel grew up and became calm. He used to murder many people without any reason, but now, only seeing Hrothgar's bowmen killing a hart made him think. "The image clings to my mind like a growth. I sense some riddle in it" (127). I think he was surprised of himself not murdering. "But then, I am in the woods again, and the snow is falling, and everything alive is fast asleep. Is is just some dream. I move on, uneasy; waiting" (137). He changed a lot in the book. "I do not usually raid in the winter, when the world is a corpse"(137).
ReplyDeleteIn this chapter I have observed that Grendel's old spirit has come back to him. His past we would observe the nature surrounding him rather than fiddling with it. He feels less of an urge to kill for pleasure, now he kills with purpose, just like before. The hate present towards the humans brought from the dragon seems more obsolete now, he deos “not pretend” to “understand these feelings, he “record”s “them, check”s “them off one by one for the dead ears of night” (126).
ReplyDeleteWhat I have found interesting in this chapter is how Grendel perceives religion. His point of view has really made me think about how ridiculous it actually is. He explains how religion was necessary for humans. He says, "there is no conviction in the old priests' songs; there is only showmanship." (128). It actually makes us wonder about the religion shown in these days. He counters Ork, the priest who gives him a new insight about the world in his view. The four priests, who shows up later symbolizes all that is man. Grendel gets disgusted and retreats.
ReplyDeleteWhat I have found interesting in this chapter is how Grendel perceives religion. His point of view has really made me think about how ridiculous it actually is. He explains how religion was necessary for humans. He says, "there is no conviction in the old priests' songs; there is only showmanship." (128). It actually makes us wonder about the religion shown in these days. He counters Ork, the priest who gives him a new insight about the world in his view. The four priests, who shows up later symbolizes all that is man. Grendel gets disgusted and retreats.
ReplyDelete