Please read Chapter 7. Write one, well-informed observation using a quote as support (1 paragraph). You must incorporate your quote. Then respond to one observation made by a different student from either class.
Due: Thursday, 5.9 (before class)
Due: Thursday, 5.9 (before class)
Grendel's primal instincts show a considerable amount of maturity, after gaining an understanding from the dragon. "I changed my mind. It would be meaningless, killing her. As meaningless as letting her live. It would be, for me, mere pointless pleasure, an illusion of order for this one frail, foolish, flicker-flash in the long dull fall of eternity."(110) Out of barbaric drive, Grendel was going to tear the woman in half. He deliberately stopped himself from killing the woman, because of human influence, as well as the dragons words from memory. Not only did Grendel restrain himself from bloodthirsty, but his narration had become poetic, much like the Shaper.
ReplyDeleteAlso: This chapter talks about balance a lot, which represents the Libra.
I am fascinated by your observation in this chapter. This chapter focused on the importance of balance, but I didn't notice that it represented the zodiac symbol of the chapter, which is the Libra. I like how the author secretly blends in Libra, and the concept of balance within this chapter.
DeleteThanks Marvilo!
DeleteHe thinks a lot about the balance in life after his encounter with the dragon. He decides not to threaten and scare the humans for fun as he knows the feeling of intimidation the dragon has had him realize. Throughout the winter, Grendel is seen holding back because of the presence of Wealtheow, whom he was amazed at every time, which I think has made him seem more humane than in the last chapter. But another part of him thinks that she is the same as other "lower" females. He kind of gets into this self conflict about Wealtheow. In the end he gets crazy and decides to kill her before he goes even more insane. He doesn't, but he "concentrated on the memory of the ugliness between her legs" (110) to convince himself that she wasn't different and special.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Mike's point of him becoming "mature" but I don't think that he decides to not kill Wealtheow because of human influence, but the Dragon's words stayed in his mind and so he stops.
I agree with how Grendel seems to be more human when Wealtheow holds him back and how he thinks of her as another woman. I still do not know why he became all crazy at the end and thought about killing her, but I was glad that he calmed himself down.
DeleteWhen Grendel saw Wealtheow, he was overwhelmed with her looks and thought that "she was beautiful, as innocent as dawn on winter hills"(100). It was like love at first sight for Grendel to experience such things. This proves how It is true that a woman are powerful enough to change a men's thoughts and actions in such ways when they fall in love. One of Grendel's actions, were how he "watched wherever she went" and describes her as if she was like a treasure. At times he would "wake up in panic, unable to breathe which made him go down to the mead hall. By seeing Wealtheow "smiling quietly", it calmed him in a way (102). All in all, women are powerful since without women, men would not even exist.
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DeleteI agree with your point and do support it. The presence of a female can change a man`s reflection on the world and tenderize any brutness existing within him. The only fact that confuses me is Grendel`s vision on the humans, after the dragon`s input, how can he ever love a human, he himself eats them in revulsion.
Delete"When I came in sight of them, I slowed down, laughing and hugging myself;it was going to be a massacre" (96). Seeing Grendels past, this observation marks the line were he is becoming a true monster. Grendel was never a monster, he killed for necessaty, now he murders for luxury. The dragons words just brought an unthinkable amount of disgust in him.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Adnan, because everybody is talking about how Grendel is finally starting to have human feelings, while in reality, he became a real murderer. Adnan is right, before he killed people to satisfy his hunger most of the times. Now he would think about who he might want to kill and also how he is going to do that.
DeleteFrom my point of view, Grendel has developed in many aspects. The first one is how Grendel shows feelings towards women, Wealthow in particular. “She tore me apart as once the Shaper’s song has done” (100). He shows an obsession towards Wealthow. He becomes frantic even when something neary unaffecting happens to her. This was the potential which drove him to become insane, and even psychotic. It’s hard loving something while growing up....Also, Grendel becomes more understanding. The quote, “I let go her feet” shows how Grendel is able to control himself more.
ReplyDeleteI agree on how Grendel has changed a lot since the beginning of the book. It's interesting how he is attracted to a human female, even if he is a monster. Perhaps he is human, who knows? Actually, he virtually is more human than actual humans in this book. Of course, he tears bodies apart and is a ravenous, blood-sucking monster, but his chain of thoughts is quite intellectual and humble; even logical perhaps; quite different from the imperiousness and social flaws of humanity.
DeleteAdnan. I truly agree with your quote and explanation. Now he kills monsters merely for satisfaction. His essence as a distinguished intelligent monster is seemingly diminishing. I genuinely hope that Grendel, whom I favor, becomes better.
ReplyDeleteGrendel's character evolution had surprised me in many ways, and mostly to the fact how he is developing human-like perspectives towards life. In this chapter, Grendel explores the happenings in the meadhall, and he is enthralled and enraptured by Wealtheow, which was brought as a gift. This shows that the Scylds treated women like objects, similar to how women was depicted in the Iliad. At the same time, Unferth doesn't care about Wealtheow, and he watched her suffer the pain. I think this shows that Unferth was either too scared to confront Grendel, or Unferth only used her for his own comforts. When Grendel is about to tear her apart, he realizes that killing her will not change anything in his life, because it is "meaningless" to kill her, and as "meaningless as letting her live" (Gardner 110). I think that this happened due to the dragon's existential influence.
ReplyDeleteNice, I like your thinking Marv. Your thinking is outside the box; I feel the deep thoughts you've put in this. I like how you related the sexism with the Iliad, and shows a bit of the bad side of Unferth, since I liked Unferth's character as a very heroic person.
DeleteIt is a fact that in ancient times, women were treated at much lower esteem than men. Often victimized as tokens of glory, objects of admiration, or simply viewed as a tool for sexual pleasure, women were stripped of most of their free will. In chapter 7, we see the young king of the Scyldings bribing Hrothgar with his sister as if she were some "thing" to be claimed by men. He entitles her "Wealtheow...holy servant of common good" as if women were born to serve males (Gardner 100). The crazy thing is, Hrothgar actually accepts the young king's bribe, "and" takes more women to be his servants. The deranged greed and selfishness of men is pitiful; even Grendel shows disapproval of such bribery.
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DeleteI like how you have pulled out something that hasn't been talked about for a while, which is how women are treated in ancient times as mere objects. I completely agree that Hrothgar is selfish, showing how common men were or arguable still selfish, while the "monster", Grendel is being the generous one.
DeleteComparing to the previous chapter, Grendel is much more soft and starts to show more maturity. For example when Hrothgar offers his sister, Grendel believes that she is "beautiful, as innocent as dawn of winter hills" (Gardner 100). Now, he sees some beauty in something, which is a human. On another note, when he is about to kill her, he believed that he could not be persuaded to not kill her, "nothing dead of alive" (Gardner 110). When actually, he doesn't kill her, he just lets her go, knowing that, "It would be meaningless killing her. As meaningless as letting her live" (Gardner 110).
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. We can definitely see Grendel becoming more mature in this chapter. I thought Grendel would of killed her but the presence of a women has some how changed Grendel.
DeleteFrom chapter 7, we can tell that there was some change in Grendel. When Grendel saw Wealtheow, he "wanted to smash things... But kept still. She was beautiful, as innocent as dawn on winter hills" (100). A presence of a women can change a man since Hrothgar changed his mind when Hygmod offered his daughter to him to avoid war. I believe women are still treated differently from Men. Although it has change in the past years, women are sometimes treated as objects like in Grendel.
ReplyDeleteI agree completely with Hugh. Women were and still are in some "uncivilised places" considered objects. Also, women can change men. I think if a woman is in true love with a man, the man can change her too.
DeleteJust too add on... I think the reason women are still somewhat treated different than men is because of their social expectations. Women, generally are considered to be emotionally and physically weaker. Women are stereotypically considered to only manage household and do home chores. Even though, their condition has improved over the years and educated people treat women with even more respect than men these days, deep down, away from the society, even they have built an image of themselves like this. Women are still not 100% treated the same around the world, as men, because they do not visualise themselves "successful". Of course, I could go deeper into it and talk about things like self-confidence, self-consciousness, and etc... But I hope my point is seen.
The biggest thing that sticks out to me is his change. Firstly, he is going away from his ideal of not playing around with humans for fun. After he realised how immoral it would be to mess around with humans upon facing the Dragon, he resolved not to do so with humans. Now, he seems to have all forgotten it. More importantly, now he has developed feelings for a female human being, which is weird because it is the same as for us to develop those feelings for an animal. He was "full of pain" when he realised what was happening to her (Gardner 100). But the description in the book, it looks like he is developing protective feelings for her too. These things occur when one starts falling in love, or already has. Furthermore, he sort of took a break from fighting with humans to be able to follow her. This is another concept and seen universally. A lot of times, stereotypically, when love occurs, people supposedly go off track because they have more important issues to deal with. Finally, (I don't know if this is the right word or not), he turns into a psychopath. He describes wishing to torture her sexually and then eventually kill her. There have been a lot of cases when men have raped and then killed women because they could not get them. I think that is what Grendel feels deep below, no matter what other reasons he provides us with. Of course he realises that should not be done. And he also develops sexual feelings for the Queen, as described on page 110 (I do not think it is appropriate to say the details and my elaborate analysis. But if thought carefully, it is pretty obvious on the page). This is how I see Grendel has changed, although in a very strange way.
ReplyDeleteEveryone is talking about how Grendel changed and became more mature and sentimental. However, I think after he talked to the Dragon, he is literally losing his mind, I mean c'mon, now he puts his thoughts into poetry and also writes down his future actions in bullet points. That's ridiculous. Well, the only good thing in Grendel's change is that he started to notice the beauty in this world as he thought "she was beautiful and she surrendered herself with the dignity of a sacrificial virgin" after he saw the queen. At the same time, this sudden transformation makes me wonder if Grendel is originally a monster. He might be a human caught inside a horrific creature who is turning into a serial killer, because he doesn't just murder people whenever he feels like it, but thinks everything through and even changes his mind while almost ripping the queen in half.
ReplyDeleteI also think that Grendel is gradually losing his mind since chapter 5. He now feels like the dragon's breath is always around him, and seems like he is blaming the dragon for what he is doing right now. Grendel makes excuses that if the dragon hadn't given him the charm, he wouldn't have been as cruel as now. This part really annoys me since he was the one who made the choice to gorge humans in, not the dragon.
DeleteGrendel is starting to understand his position of this story and his strength of his power. Though he tries to resist his fate, by killing queen "my character as long as I lived--and nothing alive or dead could change my mind!" he changed his mind by himself. Still, the fate that dragon told to him was going straight. Grendel can't kill the queen. Similar to other Greek stories, women are important in "Grendel", which avoided the war. Grendel too, was affected by this women, which made him spy over her every night.
ReplyDeleteAlthough there is not much complexity put into the paragraph i like the idea and totally agree with you. Although i do not know if i fully agree that women are important in other greek myths.But besides that great observation.
DeleteThis chapter, again, shows existentialism and nihilism. When the young king's sister is taken by Hrothgar, Grendel was captivated by her beauty and feels pity. However, he tries not to care about it, since it didn't matter to him. Things that happened to her were not important to Grendel, in an existential view. He also realizes that her beauty was only superficial after splitting her legs and seeing the "ugly hole" (Gardner 109). Then, he decides not to kill her, since nothing mattered in life. Whether he killed her or not, it was "meaningless" (Gardner 110).
ReplyDeleteGrendel is easily changed by what he sees. First he enticed by the shaper, then, although he resists, by the dragon, then by the queen. I think that his isolation made him so impressionable. Everything he saw he observed from the outside, and he wanted to get in. The shapers stories gave him a place, though a bad one, the dragon explained to Grendel that nothing mattered and because Grendel was part of something, even if it is meaninless, he believed him, (or tried to) when he saw the queen "she tore me apart like the shaper's song" (100). In the end of the chapter (and before) he is torn between what the dragon said and the goodness of the Queen/Hrothgar, unable to decide for himself what he believes.
ReplyDeleteI like how you pointed out the three influences made on Grendel and how he longed to fully understand them by actually taking part in these processes. Since these influences are contradicting, I am curious what Grendel will set his mind on near the end of the book, if he does at all.
DeleteGrendel had been moved again, this time by the queen who had present beauty that "made time's flow seem illusory, some lower law that now had been suspended" (12). He wanted to befriend her, but her presence and Shaper's defined him as the monster; because they exist as the good in history, he became the bad, and he knew that he could not make them like him, causing rage and the determination to kill.
ReplyDeleteFirst thing's first, this chapter was very interesting. Why? As we talked about in last class, we all thought Grendel was a male creature, and interestingly enough, he falls in love with a human women, so called love at first site. It was probably also his first experience too; his "chest was full of pain, [his] eyes smarted, and [he] was afraid-" he never had such feeling before which scared him (100). Also in this chapter, Grendel learns how to control himself from terrorizing the Hall, because of the "charm" dragon put on him (Probably referring to the dragon's words of wisdom) and also maybe because of Wealtheow, the incredibly beautiful Queen.
ReplyDeleteI also found it interesting how at the of the chapter Grendel seemed instantly in love with the woman but towards the end he showed some aggression towards her until he came to his senses and let her go. It was interesting reading that part where Grendel was going to kill the queen but then decided not to.
DeleteB3 Literature
ReplyDeleteEnrique
In this chapter what stood out the most (to me) was the bond between the young king and his sister. When we think of siblings and family even though you hate them or you like them, they are still part of you. (Of course this bond changes as we grow up, when we're in our teens we wouldn't really care about our siblings but as we grow up things settle down and you realize how much your siblings really mean.) So back to the story, when the young king's empire was being threatened by Hrothgar's and Hrothgar's alliances' armies, the young king said "'I offer my sister'" to Hrothgar so that he wouldn't decimate his empire (Gardner 100). While I read this "I wanted to smash things" and "bring down the night with my howl of rage" just like Grendel did (Gardner 100). First of all she is pretty, pretty, pretty and of course a family member of the king. The king treats his sister just like anyone else. It would have made more sense if the king had given away a random gorgeous woman from his empire than his sister, but even that it's sort of an uncivilized act by the king to do that too.
I find that interesting too. This chapter talked about the bond between siblings, in this case the young king and his sister. I really like the thinking of how the king could of gave some other women but chose to give his sister.
DeleteI agree with the concept of bonding between siblings and how it changes as we grow up. I would say that the young king is smart since he gave away his sister in order to protect his kingdom. On the other hand, I think it was hard for him to give her away. She was the only one that is valuable enough to be a treasure for Hrothgar. Her beauty is what made it her more precious.
DeleteEvery chapter is different in Grendel. This chapter explores the perspective of a woman. Wealtheow, one of the most important character in this chapter proves how it is to be a woman. She represents most women in the world, how she "would show no sign of her sorrow in front of" her guards nor her servants (105). That is what girls do in the present world, they hide themselves in a facade and show another version of themselves. Sometimes when girls are sad, they hide it and say that they are fine. Wealtheow's presence in this chapter has shown the hardships of women, because they have to do everything even though they don't want to do it.
ReplyDeleteI wholly agree with your opinion. The queen had really hard life; she was separated from her family, she had to live with someone she doesn't love... We can't completely understand the feeling that the queen had, but we know that she recognizes her duty, so she saves the country of his brother. In this situation, men can treat women as they want. The queen became a sacrifice and this makes her womanly, gentle and beautiful.
DeleteThis chapter was different to the other chapters. Whats interesting about this chapter is that, Grendel falls in love. He falls in love with the young Kings sister. She was given to Hrothgar as a gift of peace. "She was beautiful, as innocent as dawn on winter hills. She tore me apart as once the shaper`s song had done"(Gardner 100). Its pretty interesting how Grendel is slowly getting human like feelings. Even though when he tried to terrorize the hall and kill the queen, he managed to control his temper and decided not to kill her because it was meaningless.
ReplyDeleteI would argue it was not love. More of fascination that he had with the introduction of women, if it were love he would not have tried to kill her, would he?
DeleteGrendel is very unusual character. He is growing with the story and it is interesting to look how he is changing or getting wiser. I thought that Grendel is going crazy in the chapter 6, so I didn't like him at all. But in this chapter, I start to like him again, because he's thoughts are getting deeper. Now, Grendel has his own point of view. Although, his theories are not perfect yet, because he is young. I think he is like a teenager. For example, he fell in love. "My chest was full of pain, my eyes smarted, and I was afraid...She was beautiful... She tore me apart as the Shaper's song had done."(100) Unfortunately (or fortunately?), he was disappointed in his first love. This is an ordinary teenage story. Another example; "It was what I would be from this day forward - my commitment, my character as long as I lived - any nothing alive or dead could change my mind! I changed my mind."(110) There is still some flippancy, disorder and carelessness in Grendel. That's makes him still looks like a child.
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DeleteI fully agree with her. I also didn't like Grendel in chapter 6. He couldn't control his feelings. But then in chapter 7, he was able to control his feelings and also, stopped threatening the humans. I also agree with her that he is growing throughout the story. He gets wiser and wiser. As she said, Grendel's love story is like an ordinary teenage story.
DeleteGrendel shows different hidden personalities every chapter. I would even say he is slowly turning more human by showing different more complex human like traits that were not seen in previous chapters. such as love, for he says "I changed my mind. It would be meaningless, killing her. As meaningless as letting her live. It would be, for me, mere pointless pleasure, an illusion of order for this one frail, foolish, flicker-flash in the long dull fall of eternity."(110) This complex thoughts are not stereotypical of a monster to come up with. The complexity that Grendel shows for being a monster grows larger very chapter. I am excited to see what thoughts flow through his mind in up coming chapters.
ReplyDeleteWealtheow emotionally moves the old king, Hrothgar, “as he’d have been by the Shaper’s music” (102). I found this connection interesting and thought it was somewhat relevant since Wealtheow manages to hide her pain behind her beauty the same way the truth is cleverly hidden behind the Shaper’s embellished stories. As the song does, Wealtheow confuses Grendel and alters his demeanor. He is still incapable of wisely dealing with these foreign feelings, so he follows his instinct even if it means killing hundreds of men.
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ReplyDeleteThis chapter is different from the other chapters. In this chapter, he says that "Balance is everything"(91). He decides to stop threatening humans and make fun of them. "As for myself, I could finish them off in a single night, pull down the great carved beams and crush the into the mead hall…yet I hold back"(91). Also in this chapter, he falls in love at first sight with Wealtheow. "[His] chest was full of pain, [his] eyes smarted, and [he] was afraid… [he] was afraid [he] was about to sob"(100). It was his first time fall in love and he also thought he never will. But when he saw her, he was afraid of himself. He never felt like this before.
ReplyDeleteI agree. In chapters 7 and 8, Grendel starts to change his perspective on his fear which are humans. Grendel actually enjoys killing human, and is turning into a true monster which he use to fear.
DeleteWhat I found intresting in this chapter is the effect women can have on men, something I find applicable to modern day society. "The Shaper sang things that had never crossed his mind before: comfort, beauty, a wisdom softer, more permanent, than Hrothgars. " (Gardner 103). This line stood out because it explains the immediate effect it has on society, and since the Shaper is saying it it must be a significant change. She had a very positive vibe about her, and that "she had secret wells of joy that overflowed to them all." (Gardner 104).
ReplyDeleteWe can see a drastic change in Grendel. In this chapter, I felt like this was the first time Grendel showed his fear. In this case, he fell in love with the queen, and fears that she would be taken away. Grendel admires the queen, and states that she was " as innocent as dawn on winter hills"(100). But because of his fear, he decides to kill the queen since he couldn't make the queen his. If Grendel didn't see the dragon, he probably wouldn't have done horrible things to the queen, Grendel now faces with fear, instead of hiding from it.
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